Interview with Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr. [11\/30\/2003]<\/p>\n
War:\u00a0World War, 1939-1945
Service Location:\u00a0Oak Ridge, Tennessee; also: Oak Ridge, Tennessee
Status:\u00a0Civilian<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
I’m Brooks Kohli, and I’m interviewing Robert Brehmer of North Pickaway Street, Circleville, Ohio, who was born on August 16th, 1922. The date is November 30th, 2003.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
How old are you?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
Eighty-one.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Okay. Where were you born and raised?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
In Circleville, Ohio, USA.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
What was your–what’s your family background? What was your family like?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
Well, I had–my heritage is all German. I had one sister. She died young, so–died not real young, but in her fifties. And I am the only other one of our family that is left. My grandfather–great-grandfather came to the United States in 1854. My family ran a greenhouse that was established in 1887. So, we’ve been here a long time.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Okay. At the time of the war, were you married or single?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
I was–well, actually I got married during the war. I was working for General Electric in Schenectady, New York, and I was selected for a project in Tennessee–very secret project. And my wife was working for the Signal Corps in Washington, D.C. And I called her when I found out I was going off on a new project, and said that I don’t know where I’m going or what’s going to happen, it’s a very secret project, and didn’t know when I’d see her again. I said, “Let’s get married,” and she agreed to get married {laughter} at that time. So, we were married in Schenectady, New York. I had a one-night honeymoon in New York City, took the train to Washington, D.C., dropped her off, and I went on to Oak Ridge.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
{Laughter} Okay. What was your involvement in the war?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
I was a chemical engineer on the Manhattan Project at Oak Ridge, Tennessee. I worked for Tennessee Eastman Company there. And it was a–the thrust of the project, of course, was to separate uranium for use in the atomic bombs that were dropped in August of ’45.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
And how did you get started with that project?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
I–well, as I said, I graduate from Ohio State University, and at that time all the defense plants needed engineers, and I took a job with General Electric as a test engineer. And while I was there, the Corps of Engineers came to Schenectady and said they needed some of the test engineers from General Electric for a special project in Tennessee, and they–we–we applied for the jobs and three of us were selected. And they said they would give us the option we could go as civilians, or, if we didn’t want to go as a civilian, they would draft us and we would be assigned to the same job. And I–all of us decided we’d rather go as civilians–civilian pay, rather than be drafted into a GI pay. So {laughter} they really gave us no choice.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
And so after you’re chosen, where did you go?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
I went to–went to Oak Ridge, Tennessee, at–actually, the train took us to Knoxville, and a government car met us there and took us to the plant site, which was 18 miles from Knoxville, and it was very, very secret, and very highly guarded to get into the plant site. We had to go through inspections. And then after we got there, we had to be cleared by–well, I guess it was the FBI that investigated us. I know there were many questions asked about me in Circleville. Many–my father said that there were people all over town asking about me. So–and I finally cleared the security and was cleared for the project. And I was assigned to a dormitory. It was a section of dormitories in the new plant–new city that had been constructed for the employees of the project, and it was–the dormitories were listed by number, and I was in West Building 37. I remember that. And I lived in dormitory for quite a few months before I was able to get a house for–and my wife moved down and we lived in the house the rest of the time we were there. I think that about covers getting there {laughter}. What else?<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
And then what did you–what was your specific job?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
I was assigned to a pilot plant operation where– {Interview interrupted by a female speaker in the background.}<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
And in the process that we used at Oak Ridge for separation of uranium, the 235 isotope of uranium from 238 was an electromagnetic separation. And I was assigned to the chemical conversion of uranium oxide to uranium chloride, and we handled the first enrichment, getting the product ready for the second enrichment. And this was done in big reactors under very high pressure, and sometimes, why, we had to control the reaction with water around the reactors, and occasionally one–one of the reactors would get away from us.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
{Laughter.}<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
And that was always pretty exciting–<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
{Laughter.)<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
–because the by-product of the reaction was forging (ph) gas, and that is the mustard gas that was used in the First World War. We weren’t producing it, but it was a by-product of the operation and we had to vent it, and sometimes we had to evacuate the area because of the gas that we exhausted due to the–off of the reactor running away from us. But most the time we were able to keep it under control. It was very much in the experimental stage, and so things didn’t always go just as we’d planned for them to. I think the really remarkable thing about the whole operation was the secrecy with which it was conducted. We were–secrecy was driven into us constantly, that we were not to talk to anyone, not even our wives or our children or our family. And it was one that –well, it was considered the best kept secret of the war, because a–the city of Oak Ridge was built, a city of 75,000, which was the–became the fifth largest city in Tennessee, and people didn’t even know it existed. It was–when I first got there, the roads were just dust; and when it rained, it became quite muddy. I remember one time the–well, we always said you could stand knee-deep in mud and have dust blow in your face at Oak Ridge. It was that kind of operation. If you got off the roads at all, you were in mud up to your knees. But I remember one time some young employees were helping a lady who stepped off a boardwalk, trying to find her shoe that she’d lost in the mud. {Laughter.} But it was a supersecret operation. And the building of Oak Ridge was just fantastic, because they were able to build an entire city, and I–you want me to give some statistics on the size of the city and what-have-you?<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Yes.<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
Able to build a city of–I’ll give you information here: 10,000 houses; 13,000 dormitory spaces; 5,000 trailers; 16,000 hutments; a high school for 1100 students; junior high, 2500 pupils; eight elementary schools, 6500 pupils; 317 teachers; a 300-bed hospital; 27-chair dental clinic. The library would have 10,000 members. There were nine cafeterias; five restaurants; three lunchrooms; 300 miles of roads built or improved; 55 miles of railroads built; 13 supermarkets; nine drugstores; seven theaters; bus system with 350 buses. All this was done in complete secrecy. People in Knoxville, fifth–18 miles away didn’t know that such a thing even existed. Cameras were prohibited. You went through an inspection before you went through the gates. You had to have your pass to get in; you had to have a pass to get out. It was just a wonderful, wonderful job of security. All the employees were impressed not to say anything to anybody about what they were doing. And the security at the plant, you had badges which allowed you only to your place of operation so that nobody would have a full oversight of what was going on. Everybody was restricted to their own location and their own job. And you were impressed that you did not talk to anybody outside of your own operation about what you were doing, so that nobody could put together–put the pieces together and decide what was happening there. And it was a great surprise when the first bomb was dropped to most of the people there, what they had built; they had been working on this type of project. Turn it off. {Interview interrupted; tape recorder temporarily turned off.}<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
One thing I might say, that the process developed so fast, the pilot plant operation I was working with was designed for a new building they were constructing to handle–we handled just the first enrichment, and a lot of times there was nothing for us to work on because the process had just started. And–but we handled what product we got. And the new building was being designed to handle the product after we got into full operation. And they built this building at the–I remember the cost was 55 million dollars. And the process changed so fast, that the building was completed and not a motor was ever turned over or anything was run in that building. The research had bypassed that, the necessity for that building, before they ever got it into operation. It was never used–<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Wow.<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
–so, things moved very fast down there. It was regarded as–as really the best kept secret of the war. And everybody was congratulated for keeping it as secret as it was. I don’t think it’s anything that could be done now, with the way the news people probe everything. I don’t think we’d be able to get away with it today. But back then, it happened.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
So, not many people knew actually what they were producing–<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
No.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
–during the–<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
No. {Interview interrupted; tape recorder temporarily turned off.}<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
I have an article that was in the Knoxville newspaper just after the bomb dropped, and I think a little bit of this might be interesting. It says: “Workers who had toiled in the city of mystery were electrified to learn that they had been producing an atomic bomb–the most amazing instrument of destruction ever perfected. For many months they lived an almost Robinson Crusoe existence. No one could own a cabin–camera. They couldn’t talk about their work–even to their neighbors. They couldn’t leave the reservation without a pass. For thousands of workers and residents of this city, President Truman’s announcement of the atomic bomb meant the lifting of a great responsibility. They hadn’t known what they were working on, but they knew it was mysterious and awesome. They were glad the secret was out.” {Interview interrupted; tape recorder temporarily turned off.}<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
“Today–today these workers were praised to (ph) the Army for honest-to-God patriotism. ‘We educated worker personnel on the advantages of keeping silence, and they told their families to follow through and not to discuss any phase of the project.’ Said Captain Tom Taylor, ‘It was the best kept secret of the war and the people themselves are to be congratulated. They simply didn’t talk, because they wanted to protect their country.'” {Interviewed interrupted; tape recorder temporarily turned off.}<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
I’ll read you another letter that each employee received from the Under Secretary of War after the dropping of the bomb. It reads: “Today the whole world knows the secret with which you have helped us keep for many months. I am pleased to be able to add that the warlords of Japan now know its effects better than even we ourselves. The atomic bomb, which you have helped to develop with high devotion to patriot duty, is the most devastating military weapon that any country has ever been able to turn against its enemy. No one of you has worked on the entire project or known the whole story. Each of you has done his own job and kept his own secret. And so today I speak for a grateful nation when I say congratulations and thank you all. I hope you will continue to keep the secrets you have kept so well. The need for security and for continued effort is fully as great now as it ever was. We are proud of every one of you.”<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
So, what were your feelings when you–or what went through your mind when you heard that the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
Well, it was really great surprise. Everyone was just shocked at the–this happened. But, of course, there was great jubilation, because it was almost certain that this would put an end to the war, which it did, what–some eight days after the bomb was dropped the surrender was signed. So–but it met with all kinds of reaction. But I think the most was just complete surprise. Some of us had an idea. We knew that we were working with radioactive uranium. But we felt that it would be used as a power source and not as a bomb, because the thought of that was too awesome. But, we were very much surprised that it was used in this manner.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Was it–were there feelings of sort of retaliation to the Japanese for what they had done at Pearl Harbor?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Because we all knew of the atrocities that the Japanese had committed to our servicemen, and so I’m sure that was in everybody’s mind.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Yeah.<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
But we–in thinking about it, we felt that it probably saved more lives than it–than were lost, because Japan had vowed to fight with pitchforks if they had to, or even on their homeland if we invaded. And it would have been a slaughter. And I know my friends that were over there, who were ready to be shipped off the islands that they had occupied to the mainland, were ecstatic about the outcome. But they feel it saved their lives.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Yeah. Beside the–your involvement on the project, what was the rest of your life like during that wartime?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
Well, we were, of course, very much confined to the area, but we lived a normal life, except there were a lot of shortages. Of course, gasoline was rationed. You were given–those in defense plants were given a little more gasoline than those who were not em–employed in the defense operation. Sugar was rationed. Meat was rationed. Shoes were rationed. Ladies’ nylons were impossible to get. There were many, many shortages. You couldn’t buy a new tire. If you had a blowout, you went and tried to find somebody who had a recap or something that you could put on your car. And, of course, there were no automobiles built at all. You had to keep the ol’ car runnin’ because everything was devoted to the war effort. And the civilian necessities were sort of put aside to take care of the military needs.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
What did you do as far as entertainment?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
Well, there were, of course, movies and–well, a group of the fellows that I worked with, we bought a beat-up boat and went to Norris Lake on the work bus. We didn’t have enough gasoline to get there, but the work bus went within four miles of the lake. And we would take the work bus to–well, a town called Lake City, and walk over to Norris Lake and spend time on our boat when we had time. We all worked shift work, the swing shift. So, that once every three weeks, we had a 56-hour weekend, and we really looked forward to that because that was like a minivacation, and we–this was the time we had to spend there, doing the things that we enjoyed doing.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Did you listen a lot to the radio and the news about the war?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
Oh, absolutely. Everybody–you listened to the news all the time, and a lot of it was not good news, of course, because of the way things were going in the Pacific–Pacific with all the casualties and the fall of Bataan and defeats here and there. It got pretty depressing at times. And then when the war began to turn around, you had a little bit of hope. But it really looked very bleak for quite sometime.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Did you have any family members or friends who were killed or wounded in action?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
No, I didn’t personally.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
No?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
No. Had several in the service, but they all came back. {Interview interrupted; tape recorder temporarily turned off.}<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Okay. Going back to the Manhattan Project, did you ever go out to Arizona or have anything to do with Los Alamos or–<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
No, no.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
None of that?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
No, we knew that the end product would be shipped out to Arizona, but we didn’t know what was going on there. What–well, actually, I worked on {cleared throat} worked on the building where the end product was sent out. One thing that I might mention is most–many of the workers wondered what in the world was happening at Oak Ridge, because they saw all of this material coming in and coming in and nothing ever went out. {Laughter.} And, of course, the end product, when they got a pound of the U-235, this–it took three years to get to that point. And, so, all this work that was being done, was being done for just a few pounds of material. So, it was–people wondered what in the world they were doing. {Interview interrupted; tape recorder temporarily turned off.}<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
How long do you think it took to get sort of back to life as normal after the war ended?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
I don’t think it took very long. It took a while before any automobiles were available. I remember I–the war ended in 1945, and I drove a 1936 Ford until ’49 when the first cars were beginning to come out. Otherwise, I think they got back to normal pretty quickly, actually.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
What did you do as far as an occupation after the war ended?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
After the war ended, I was still at Oak Ridge and I’d been offered a job there. But my father, who was in the greenhouse business here in Circleville, wanted me to come home and at least try the greenhouse business. I wasn’t real excited it, but he was very adamant that I should at least come and try, and if I didn’t like it, he said I could go back to engineering. And, so, I came home and tried it, and I stuck.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
{Laughter.} How do you think the war–or do you think the war changed people in general?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
That’s hard to say. I–certainly there was more patriotism for quite a period after the war. And there certainly was a lot of–lot of relief that the war was over. A lot of celebration. Of course, when the war ended, the celebrations were just fantastic.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Yeah. What were your reactions to the–like the investigation of the Rosenbergs?<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
Oh, well–gee whiz. I think I accepted it, as everybody else, that they should be–have been prosecuted as they were, because we were all instilled with patriotism at the time, and anybody who worked against our country was a mortal enemy and certainly should be prosecuted.<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Yeah. {Interview interrupted; tape recorder temporarily turned off.}<\/p>\n
Brooks Kohli:<\/p>\n
Well, thank you, Bud, for sharing your story, and it was a very interesting one, and you played an important part in the war effort.<\/p>\n
Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr.:<\/p>\n
Well, thank you.<\/p>\n
[CONCLUSION OF TAPED INTERVIEW]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"
Interview with Robert Louis Brehmer, Jr. [11\/30\/2003] War:\u00a0World War, 1939-1945 Service Location:\u00a0Oak Ridge, Tennessee; also: Oak Ridge, Tennessee Status:\u00a0Civilian Brooks Kohli: I’m Brooks Kohli, and I’m interviewing Robert Brehmer of North Pickaway Street, Circleville, Ohio, who was born on August 16th, 1922. The date is November 30th, 2003. Brooks Kohli: How old are you? Robert […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[10],"class_list":["post-96818","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-research-paper-writing","tag-writing"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/papersspot.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/96818","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/papersspot.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/papersspot.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/papersspot.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/papersspot.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=96818"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/papersspot.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/96818\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/papersspot.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=96818"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/papersspot.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=96818"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/papersspot.com\/blog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=96818"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}