BRIEF THERAPY FOR ADDICTIONS 6 MOTIVATIONAL INTERVIEWING (VIDEO TRANSCRIPT)
20:352-1
WILLIAM MILLER What, what is it that brings you here today?
MIKE Well, actually, I’m doing a favor for (chuckles) a friend of mine.
20:40WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE And he told me about the study you guys are doing, so, ah, I figured I’d, have to participate in it. And ah, you told me you’re a basically an addiction counselor and ah, he thought I might be an interesting subject.
20:50WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
20:55MIKE Okay. (laughs)
WILLIAM MILLER (laughs) Okay. Well, tell me about where you are now with, with the addictions that you’ve been.
21:00MIKE Ah, well, well, what, what do you wanna know in, in ah, particular?
WILLIAM MILLER Well, uhm, are you in recovery now, or. (crosstalk)
21:05MIKE No, I’m not.
WILLIAM MILLER Okay, alright. So, ah, what’s, what are the drugs or what, what is the effect of it?
21:10MIKE Ah, well, actually cigarettes.
21:15WILLIAM MILLER Okay. Uh-huh. (crosstalk)
MIKE That, that’s the biggest.
WILLIAM MILLER Okay.
MIKE Ah, alcohol to a degree, ah, but, ah, I think I’ve had multiple problem of that two, three years ago.
21:20WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE You know, it seems of ah, goin’, goin’ down to a, to a degree, and perhaps, because of the environment,-
21:252-2
MIKE You know?
21:30WILLIAM MILLER So that’s kinda settle down.
MIKE Well, not all that much.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Okay, but enough, you know, it, it’s going down simply because I’m getting too old to do this… (crosstalk)
21:35WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE …stuff anymore, if that makes any sense to you.
21:40WILLIAM MILLER It does.
MIKE Okay. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER You, you can’t keep up with it anymore.
MIKE I don’t think I can.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE I really don’t think I can.
21:45WILLIAM MILLER And then the cigarettes are still a real addiction for you.
MIKE I, yeah, I really do. I think they’re worse.
21:50WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE I, in the past, I’ve, I’ve done, ah, cocaine, I’ve even dug crack cocaine. I’ve, I’ve heard that’s one of the most addictive drugs around, ah, (crosstalk)
21:55WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE quite frankly. From my own personal experience, I don’t find it addictive at all.
22:00WILLIAM MILLER Yeah, it’s interesting how it’s different for different people. (crosstalk)
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. So for you, it’s tobacco and alcohol.
22:05MIKE Yeah. Yeah. And coffee.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE I mean, if you, if you wanna get that specific. (crosstalk)
22:10WILLIAM MILLER How far do you wanna go there? (crosstalk)
MIKE That mean, you know, how do you wanna go?
WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh. (crosstalk)
MIKE I mean, like that, a lady is supposedly addicted to ah, ah, Chapsticks, same as(ph). (crosstalk)
22:15WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE So, let’s cope. (crosstalk)
22:20WILLIAM MILLER Gets, gets used for almost anything you have… (crosstalk)
MIKE Right.
WILLIAM MILLER …these days. Yeah. Well, how would, how much you like things to be different? I guest that’s a good place to start.
22:252-3
MIKE Well, basically, (sighs) you know, I don’t, uhm, see that’s my problem. I don’t think I’m really all that committed to making things all that different ‘coz I’m not seeing that much harmful benefits. I was told that you’re not able to slow it down. It’s progressive, you know. It get worse, and worse, and worse, and worse. And that’s just doesn’t seem to be the case with me.
22:45WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Okay. I think that ah, certain things in my lifestyle just preclude me not using, okay?
22:50WILLIAM MILLER Right.
MIKE Okay. And that, ah, and smoking has become a problem because I’m starting to play soccer, okay.
22:55WILLIAM MILLER So you can’t breathe.
MIKE That’s why I can’t breathe.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. Uh hmm.
23:00MIKE The kids are younger and younger.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE They’re half my age, twice my size. I’m having a problem with it.
WILLIAM MILLER And you’re noticing it, yeah, hmm.
23:05MIKE Okay. Yeah, so.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm. Alright, so, ah, I mean, the message that you shouldn’t use at all is like somebody out there telling you that, but that doesn’t fit your experience.
23:10MIKE I don’t know. Well, “use at all.” What, what does that mean? What do you mean by that?
23:15WILLIAM MILLER Well, I guess, maybe I misunderstood you. I, I thought that uhm, you were saying people tell you that you can’t use or shouldn’t use or whatever.
23:25MIKE Oh, yeah. Yeah, they think(ph), yeah, they told me that before. You know,-
23:302-4
MIKE – ah, ah, ah, I’ve, I’ve been through, uhm, I gue, I guess you really know nothing about me, do you?
23:35WILLIAM MILLER Nothing at all.
MIKE Oh, (laughs) okay. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER No.
MIKE I’m sorry about that.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE I thought at least they filled you in with some kind or something. (crosstalk)
23:40WILLIAM MILLER No, I asked. (crosstalk)
MIKE So, okay, no problem.
WILLIAM MILLER I asked not to being, ah. (crosstalk)
MIKE Okay.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Well, no, ah, here’s what happened. I got a DUI a while back, ah, I think it was back in ’93, and I had one prior to that in ’85, (crosstalk)
23:50WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE and I went through some ah, counseling. It was mandatory, state-driven. Ah, basically you go for the counseling, ah, and, ah, ah, after you’ve successfully completed it, ah, you’re, ah, ah, rehab.
24:00WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
MIKE But I actually rehab, (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE and, ah, then you get your driving privileges back.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
24:05MIKE And I, I guess what I’m trying to say is I’ve got some bad experiences. Not bad experiences with the counselors, but I’ve, I’d, I’ve found them ah, to be, not less than professional, but just very rigid in their approach.
24:15WILLIAM MILLER Okay.
MIKE Okay. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER And that, that didn’t work for you and it didn’t fit.
MIKE Ah, it didn’t fit at that time. And at that time, I don’t think I was really all that committed to quitting, ah, and then, I, I, I was but yet another time, but the other time… (crosstalk)
24:25WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE was because I was earning $40 an hour and-
24:302-5
MIKE – I was working 10 hours a day, five days a week. So guess what?
24:35WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE You’re not supposed to able to quit, you see?
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
MIKE That’s what those counselors told me.
24:40WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Well, I was really strange and I was, wasn’t it? (laughs)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE So, I mean, I guess what I’m saying is I do have, well, we have a negative attitude about, you know, some of the things I’ve been through as far as the state program is concerned. Ah, I don’t know how I can explain them or if, if you have any.
24:55WILLIAM MILLER Well, I, I’m gonna(ph) think I’ve got it, isn’t it? But you were telling your experience doesn’t match what you were being told, or that,
25:00MIKE No.
WILLIAM MILLER that they’re telling you this is how you are, and you look at yourself and say, “No.” (crosstalk)
25:05MIKE That, that’s, yeah, that’s not, that’s not necessarily true. And in, then they are two. You were, you were supposed to say, “Well, I’m an alcoholic, and I will always have a problem. Listen, I have to quit and I can never drink again.” This and that, and everything else. (crosstalk)
25:15WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE And you had to really say that, you see?
25:20WILLIAM MILLER Right
MIKE Right. Or else, you weren’t fitting into role. They wanted you to play… (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Right.
MIKE without fitting in the role. You can get, they wanted you to play, (crosstalk)
25:25WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE you could not get your license back. So, you know, I played the game basically and I went to AA and I’ve also found that to just to be a little bit on the,-
25:302-6
MIKE – uhm, you know, it didn’t work for me. It’s “bumper sticker” therapy.
25:35WILLIAM MILLER Okay.
MIKE You’ll fake it… (crosstalk)
25:40WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE …if you will make it. Wow, (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE how profound.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE Man, you guys are deep, aren’t you? You know? (chortles)
25:45WILLIAM MILLER Alright.
MIKE And, you know, I mean, yeah, seriously, I’ve been, went there and these guys were, no, they didn’t do anything all day(ph). Some were, but they didn’t drink that day.
25:50WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE You know, I’d rather, let’s say, lift weights, ah, maybe build a patio furnace, maybe program our base, and then drink.
26:00WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
MIKE Instead of just not drink and do nothing (laughs) else. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE I just. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE I found, I, I found that, you know, ah, certain things and certain aspects about it, ah, I liked, but, ah, I think you have to have a deep-seated religious belief for it to work for you.
26:15WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm. Well, and, and, it’s sound that you wanna have an act of life in a way, not drinking. It’s doing, it’s not doing something. It’s doing nothing, yeah.
26:20MIKE Yeah. It’s doing nothing.
WILLIAM MILLER So for you, the question is “What am I gonna be doing? Well, how do I spend my time?”
26:25MIKE Yeah. Actually, that is. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Playing soccer game.
26:30MIKE That, that’s good. Yeah, I mean, and, and actually I was, I was, you know, ah, thinking myself-
2-7
MIKE -the way I can best quit smoking, it’s not by quitting smoking, but playing soccer three times a week.
26:40WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE Okay?
WILLIAM MILLER Okay. (crosstalk)
MIKE Now, I’m going for something, okay?
WILLIAM MILLER That’s right. Okay. (crosstalk)
MIKE And then all of a sudden, (crosstalk)
26:45WILLIAM MILLER Ah.
MIKE I may have a problem, breathing, okay?
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE So guess what? You’re gonna quit smoking. You’re not gonna say, “I gotta quit smoking. I gotta quit.” You know, that, to me, that doesn’t, that doesn’t work for me. If that were, you know, if… (crosstalk)
26:55WILLIAM MILLER It, it might even, less than not work. I mean, it might make it… (crosstalk)
MIKE I think. (crosstalk)
27:00WILLIAM MILLER …less likely.
MIKE I think it’s less likely.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. (crosstalk)
MIKE Yeah, there, you know, I quit smoking before for ah, ah, about four months, ah, then I blew up my knee.
27:05WILLIAM MILLER Hmm.
MIKE And, ah, you know, I went down to see my brother , and, boom… (crosstalk)
27:10WILLIAM MILLER Hmm.
MIKE …right back to it. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. (inaudible )
27:13MIKE And, you know, it seems safe with drinking. I mean, I, I think I was actually more, how should I say, ah, I, I, I seem to have more of a craving, ah, (crosstalk)
27:20WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE ah, when I was going through counseling.
WILLIAM MILLER Right.
MIKE And then when I wasn’t. (laughs)
27:25WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE Okay, so it’s like, okay, reverse effect.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE Guys, you really are helping me a lot, you know? And, ah. (crosstalk)
27:30WILLIAM MILLER Now, well, I wonder if it, if it isn’t the, being told you can’t or it’s like being in prison is really a way.
27:352-8
MIKE Yeah, and it could, it could be just some immaturity on my part.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE You know, if they told me I can’t do something, I’m gonna do something.
27:40WILLIAM MILLER Right.
MIKE You know, maybe what they should say is, “Yeah, you, you, you better drink everyday. Goddamn it. I want you to drink a fifth before, before noontime,” you know, then maybe I’d say, “Oh, screw you, guys,” you know. I don’t know. Maybe there’s something with, ah, about my personality is like that. So I, you know, uhm, what should I say? One size doesn’t fit all.
27:55WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. Exactly. (crosstalk)
28:00MIKE Yeah. One size doesn’t fit all.
WILLIAM MILLER And, and for you, what matters is having something that you’re going toward, (crosstalk)
28:05MIKE Right.
WILLIAM MILLER not something you’ll run away from.
MIKE Right. Right.
WILLIAM MILLER And one of those things is soccer.
28:10MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER What else?
MIKE Well, tennis. How about backpacking? Ah, (crosstalk)
28:15WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE you know, how about, ah, how about just waking up clearheaded?
WILLIAM MILLER Yes, that’s nice.
28:20MIKE Right? I mean, don’t you think that’s kind of… (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER It’s great.
MIKE …pleasurable, (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm. Uh hmm.
MIKE sometimes, you know? Yeah.
28:25WILLIAM MILLER That just getting up in the morning and being able to think and, (crosstalk)
MIKE Yeah, but… (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER clearly. Hmm.
28:30MIKE …I’m telling one, one thing right now. I, I, you know, sometimes, you know, I won’t drink four, five, six days. If I smoke two packs-
28:352-9
MIKE – of cigarettes, I wake with a hangover.
WILLIAM MILLER Hmm. (crosstalk)
MIKE I thought it was a booze, but it isn’t. (crosstalk)
28:40WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh. Drink… (crosstalk)
MIKE So you, now, see. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER …without the booze.
MIKE Oh, yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE It’s carbon monoxide, man.
28:45WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE You’ve got no oxygen in your system, so, (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm. And. (crosstalk)
MIKE I guess that’s, my (titters) real problem right now is of cigarettes.
28:50WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE So.
WILLIAM MILLER And we’ll say your alco, it’s something you’re not that worried about alcohol, really.
28:55MIKE No, it’s, it’s bad, but it’s not that as bad.
WILLIAM MILLER Not causing you problems or. (crosstalk)
29:00MIKE Yeah, well, it is. It, it’ll cause anyone problems.
WILLIAM MILLER Hmm. How so?
MIKE You have a six-pack of beer, wake up, try to program a computer.
29:05WILLIAM MILLER Okay.
MIKE Okay.
WILLIAM MILLER So. (crosstalk)
29:10MIKE You have a six-pack of beer, wake up, find out how alert you are for the first two hours of the day.
WILLIAM MILLER Right.
29:15MIKE Okay? That’s gonna cause anyone problems. Ah, you know, have a six-pack and have a twelve-pack, try to play soccer next day.
29:20WILLIAM MILLER Right.
MIKE Okay. It’s, it’s, you really… (crosstalk)
29:25WILLIAM MILLER So(ph). (crosstalk)
MIKE …got a problem.
WILLIAM MILLER It’s amount on the aftereffects of that.
MIKE Right.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. (crosstalk)
MIKE Right. And I think my tolerance is, is up so high that it takes me too, too much to get the same buzz, and unfortunately, ah, ah, the recovery, it’s, it’s getting to the-
29:352-10
MIKE – point where it’s just not worth it. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER It’s not worth it. Yeah.
29:40MIKE If, if I can get like a twelve-pack high on three beers,
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE you know, I got three ounces I got to process.
29:45WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE If, if it’s taking me 12 to get the same which I got three on, I still, I now, I got 12 to process. You see?
29:50WILLIAM MILLER Yep.
MIKE So, ah, we’re at, we’re at the balance point that we’re, ah, we’re getting the measuring(ph) returns… (crosstalk)
29:55WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE …on ever expanding, how should I say, quantities.
30:00WILLIAM MILLER It’s like the slot machine doesn’t pay off… (crosstalk)
MIKE No, no, no.
WILLIAM MILLER …singles anymore. Yeah. (crosstalk)
MIKE That’s not, well, you know, it’s, (crosstalk)
30:05WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE it’s, it’s still addiction, so you’re stupid, so you keep on playing at it. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE You know?
WILLIAM MILLER It is amazing. I’ve never, how long you keep going.
30:10MIKE Yeah. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER But if you’re kinda, with alcohol, you’re kinda getting a point where, “No, this isn’t worth it anymore.”
30:15MIKE Yeah. Yeah. But I’m not, it, it’s not because, it’s not because anyone is telling me for the outside. It’s not because I’m being forced to do that. It’s just because I got to wake up in the morning, and I know how I feel, (crosstalk)
30:30WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE period. Okay? And I, I think what was happened is ah, before I used to drink, drink, drink-
30:352-11
MIKE – all the time, and I was, I was, I was always drinking, then I, then I stopped. Then I thought of how good I felt.
30:45WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Okay? Now, I have a compare and contrast.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Whereas before, I never had a compare and contrast.
30:50WILLIAM MILLER Now you know.
MIKE Now you know. Yeah, now you know. “Hey, wait. Wasn’t it a lot better I was clear-headed than when I was,” you know. (crosstalk)
30:55WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE So and, ah, ah, to me, then, then it does become a problem, because now you, at least you have something you can, you know,
31:00WILLIAM MILLER Right.
MIKE you can relate to. You can say, “This is, this is how I am without it, this is how I am with it. This is my performance without it, this is my performance with it.” You know?
31:10WILLIAM MILLER It’s only when it’s a problem for you really that it matters.
MIKE Right. Alright.
WILLIAM MILLER If somebody else is telling you.
31:15MIKE Yeah, it doesn’t work.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah, or, or worse. I mean, yeah, and more likely you back a, (crosstalk)
31:20MIKE Why. (laughing) (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER back away from it. (crosstalk)
MIKE Why. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER You know? Yeah.
MIKE Yeah, but why, why is your approach the opposite? That’s what I, it, it, it, I, I don’t mean to be pleaser(ph) toward, toward addiction counseling but I, I can’t help but be. Why, and sometimes, I wonder if these people didn’t want that, isn’t it? (crosstalk)
31:30WILLIAM MILLER It, it doesn’t make sense to me. Alright, it’s human nature to, ah, to push against something when they push against you. Yeah. (crosstalk)
31:35MIKE Right.
WILLIAM MILLER So.
31:402-12
MIKE Well, you know, I, I once heard in AA, too, it’s, it’s, it’s the dumbest things I ever heard, I, the, the, some of the comments that I’ve heard, they were just so, just got awfully stupid. And these people are just complete idiots. “We, alcoholics, don’t like to be told what to do.” And I’m thinking, ” Wait, we alcohol, what are you, some special breed of people?” No one likes to be told… (crosstalk)
31:55WILLIAM MILLER That’s human nature. Yeah.
MIKE …what to do. You know, and I really got tired of that kinda, the kinda like we’re special because we have… (crosstalk)
32:05WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE …this disease,
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE or, or come to feel sorry for us because we have a disease. So quite frankly, the more I read about alcoholism, no one knows what the hell it is.
32:10WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
32:15MIKE So I might even say I am because until there’s a definitive area that with the degree on, you know, you know, I, I can say alcohol dependent. Now, that makes sense. It’s all bit more clinical and it. (crosstalk)
32:25WILLIAM MILLER That has been understand.
MIKE You could, yeah, (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER You know.
MIKE that’s understandable.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE But ah, that’s one of the things I didn’t like about ah, AA, is that, that they, they wore it like a badge.
32:35WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm. And then. (crosstalk)
MIKE There is something to be proud of, but there’s nothing to be ashamed of.
32:402-13
WILLIAM MILLER Right.
MIKE But you certainly don’t do some reverse pride on it, and, you know, “We’re special because we’re this, we’re different.” I didn’t see any difference between those people and normal people.
32:50WILLIAM MILLER So that seems to work… (crosstalk)
MIKE You know.
WILLIAM MILLER …for some people but that’s not… (crosstalk)
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER …gonna help you.
MIKE Well, and well, who do you think it worked for?
32:55WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Apparently, highly religious people,
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE and who believed in higher powers and miracles… (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE that some deity is gonna come down and save them… (crosstalk)
33:00WILLIAM MILLER Hmm.
MIKE …any time they have problems.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE I’m not that type of person.
33:05WILLIAM MILLER That’s not you.
MIKE Nope.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. And, and for you, it has to be some reason that you see that, that persuades you, “Okay, it’s time.”
33:15MIKE (laughs) Yeah. A little bit, but, (laughing) yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER A little bit.
MIKE Alright. a little bit more realistic, okay? (crosstalk)
33:20WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. Yeah. (crosstalk)
MIKE No nonsense.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. (crosstalk)
MIKE No “bumper sticker” stuff, you know. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER And not being able to breathe on the soccer field is no nonsense, yes. (crosstalk)
MIKE – a couple of books, and then one time, I really did ah, enjoy with the stuff, book that read positive addiction. And, ah, (crosstalk)
33:45WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE you know, I, you know, haven’t a run, haven’t been a runner before. Being in cross-country, I could see exactly how that worked, and then, that basically this guy was saying, what happened is he, he was under suspicions that a lot of people running were actually had drinking problems, and ran themselves out of those.
34:00WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Now, I think that that is… (crosstalk)
34:05WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE …actually true because after I run, I have about this much desire to drink.
34:10WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE And I have about that much desire to smoke.
WILLIAM MILLER For cigarette. Yeah.
34:15MIKE Right. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE Yeah, the endomorphines, you feel good, you’re alert.
WILLIAM MILLER Yup, yup.
34:20MIKE Why would you wanna pollute yourself, you know?
WILLIAM MILLER Makes sense to me.
MIKE So, I mean, that’s, that’s my, my, ah, my, (crosstalk)
34:25WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE my deal on that, you know? That’s my, my read on who I am, you know? But it, am I committed? No. To, to totally abstinence? No. I don’t know.
34:35WILLIAM MILLER Oh, to total abstinence. Okay. (crosstalk)
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Coz’ that, I mean, I’m hearing a lot of commitment in what you’re saying, that, that, I mean,-
34:402-15
WILLIAM MILLER – it’s worth it to me to in order to be able to breathe on the soccer field, (crosstalk)
34:45MIKE Right.
WILLIAM MILLER to be something… (crosstalk)
MIKE To quit smoking.
WILLIAM MILLER …about that cigarettes.
MIKE Yeah. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER To quit smoking, you know?
MIKE Yeah. Yeah.
34:50WILLIAM MILLER Ah, so there, I was hearing some commitment.
MIKE Yeah, that, I think there are the risks. You could see when I quit smoking, I quit drinking, too, you know?
34:55WILLIAM MILLER Is that right?
MIKE Yeah, I’d be glad to have to. Well, I mean, I wish I have to.
35:00WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE ‘Coz I, I can’t. I can’t, like drink. ‘Coz if I drink, (crosstalk)
35:05WILLIAM MILLER And.
MIKE I’ll have a cigarette.
WILLIAM MILLER It’s, okay, they’re that tied together.
MIKE Yeah. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER You get, you do them together so many… (crosstalk)
35:10MIKE Well, you’d lose your job when you drink.
WILLIAM MILLER …tens of thousands of times, yeah. (crosstalk)
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE When you have coffee, you know? Coffee, cigarette for a while. (crosstalk)
35:15WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE You cigarette for, you know, just association. Yeah I think like, ah, when you drink, you’d lose your judgment. Your will power just goes down.
35:20WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE I don’t know if you call it “will power.” I think it’s just judgment.
WILLIAM MILLER Whatever it is. Yeah.
35:25MIKE When you’re going home, I’ll have cigarettes. Sure, we taste good now. Oh, yeah. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Hmm.
MIKE Okay. All right. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Yeah. So.
35:30WILLIAM MILLER It happened with a cocaine, too, many people, drinking is the, is the most common reason why people go back to using cocaine when they really have once stayed away from it.
35:35MIKE Oh, really. Really. (crosstalk)
35:40WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. So it’s exactly what you’re talking about.
MIKE There, there’s such an association-
2-16
MIKE – between the two, huh?
WILLIAM MILLER Well, whatever it is, or, or it just ah, kind of dulls down your judgment…
35:45MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER …enough that you say, “Oh, yeah, well, that, (crosstalk)
35:50MIKE I don’t feel. (laughs) (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER that didn’t feel nice.” Yeah.
MIKE Should I (laughing) ask, do you drink? (laughs)
WILLIAM MILLER Huh?
MIKE Do you drink? (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER I do. Yes, I do. Yeah.
35:55MIKE Well, you know how the judgment goes. Indeed, yeah, let’s face it. It goes, it goes on everyone.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE You know? Ah, they will say, “Oh, we alcoholics are different.” No, no, no, no. You feed someone six beers, and their judgment is gonna go down. It’s just. (crosstalk)
36:05WILLIAM MILLER It’s gonna have that effect. Yeah. (crosstalk)
MIKE Yeah, it’s a physiological reaction… (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE to a toxic drug, you know?
36:10WILLIAM MILLER Yep.
MIKE Let’s face it.
WILLIAM MILLER Yep, yep.
MIKE So.
WILLIAM MILLER It is. So you, you really would be talking about stopping cigarettes and alcohol then.
36:15MIKE Well, yeah.
36:20WILLIAM MILLER In order to breathe.
MIKE But I don’t wanna think about it.
WILLIAM MILLER Oh.
MIKE I don’t have to think about that.
36:25WILLIAM MILLER You mean, you just wanna do it and not think about it, or you don’t wanna consider. (crosstalk)
MIKE Well, I, I would, I would rather do it, not think about it.
36:30WILLIAM MILLER Yup.
MIKE I mean. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Not much point in thinking about it.
MIKE Well, I mean, is there?
36:35WILLIAM MILLER No, no.
MIKE Do I think about… (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER It’s. (crosstalk)
MIKE …working out everyday?
WILLIAM MILLER It. (crosstalk)
MIKE Do I think about brushing my teeth? If I did, I wouldn’t wanna brush my teeth.
36:40WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE You know, I gotta brush my teeth tomorrow. You know, that’s gonna be pretty-
36:452-17
MIKE – bad. You know that, do you? I gotta brush my teeth. You, you know what I’m saying?
WILLIAM MILLER I do. I do. (crosstalk)
MIKE I think that’s what has, what, what, what happens when people do that, and I, I see more procrastination because it’s worse to think about having to go to the gym and work out. And my God, it’s gonna hurt. No, I’m gonna do those curls and my biceps are gonna kill me, and all that. Then I have to wake up and brush my teeth. I think that when you think about stuff like that, I think it actually is more counterproductive… (crosstalk)
37:10WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE …than just saying, “Ah, screw it. Just do it,” you know?
WILLIAM MILLER Are you thinking about going to sleep?
37:15MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Well, as long as you’re doing that, you’re not gonna be going to sleep?
MIKE You’re not going to sleep. Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE I hope that makes sense to you.
37:20WILLIAM MILLER It will does. No, it, it wasn’t what I had meant if I think about it. (crosstalk)
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER But I’m, I see exactly what you mean that if you, if you’re thinking about something or like trying is another word, if you’re trying to do it, you’re not doing it, are you? You can do it or you don’t do it, but, (crosstalk)
37:30MIKE Yeah. Yeah, (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER you know, (crosstalk)
MIKE I guess so. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER try do it, you know. (crosstalk)
37:35MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Try to go to sleep, you know, you.
MIKE Ah.
WILLIAM MILLER You just go to sleep. Yeah. (crosstalk)
MIKE You just go to sleep. Just, ah.
37:40WILLIAM MILLER So what would be great is if we were just natural, that natural, you know? You’re not thinking about it. You just, it’s just natural to do it.
37:452-18
MIKE Well, I mean, whether you think, I’m, I’m, I’m thinking basically that the, that the thing I could best do is, is just start running again and just start, ah, really substituting habits. I don’t think, ah, I think, substitution of habit make a habit so counterproductive or kinda, kinda contradictory, I should say, maybe, ah. (crosstalk)
38:05WILLIAM MILLER Not worth it.
MIKE Yeah, which you just replace one habit with another habit ah, rather than just try to get rid of one habit. I think it kinda comes up to a vacuum state. Now, what do I do? I gotta rid of this habit. Now what do I replace it with, you know? So.
38:20WILLIAM MILLER Well, and you’re, you’re clearly telling me that’s what works for you.
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER That’s what’s kinda do it.
MIKE Well, that’s what’s done in the past, you know? (crosstalk)
38:25WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE That’s what’s done in the past. Actually, I gotta join another soccer team. I got these, I got to play with people. A lot of people saying that why I really get pissed off of myself.
38:35WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE You know?
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE That stuff.
WILLIAM MILLER And that’s about it. It’s worked for you before.
38:40MIKE Uh hmm.
WILLIAM MILLER It’s a good indication.
MIKE Yeah. Yeah, but what, what it hasn’t worked for me is drug addiction. (laughing)
38:452-19
MIKE Counselor, sorry to say.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. Yeah. Now, you’re reaction to that was.
38:50MIKE Well, it’s the, you have to realize. First off, most of the people there, and, and I’m not trying to apologist for ’em. Ah, the, but, anyway, I am. Ah, they, they were good people. Most of people there were forced to be there.
39:00WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE They weren’t there on their free will. So, of course, they’re gonna be resistant.
39:05WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Uhm, and, uhm, most of the people there, I mean, you’re basically, ah, you got it. You, you have to talk a certain way, behave a certain way, do certain things, so they think you are “whatever… (crosstalk)
39:20WILLIAM MILLER Right.
MIKE …rehab,” okay? So you, you’ll learn real quickly how to play the game.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE You know, what are you looking for? Okay, what’s this counselor looking for? What’s this person want me to say? Okay. I was supposed to feel this way about something because that’s the way she’s been told that, that, that we define this addiction. So what I’ll do is just I’ll play in her bullshit even though it isn’t true. And as long as I can do it in a convincing way and fool her. Boom! Wham! Oh, I got it and I got my license back. And, you know, that’s a game that I was playing the whole time, and, and-
39:452-20
MIKE – actually, ah, I, I kinda lost respect for people ‘coz, ah, it, they were so easy to fool.
39:50WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Ah, the other side, I read, read the ah, addiction counseling books. I’ve found out what they’re looking for, what the trades were, (crosstalk)
39:55WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. Play the game.
MIKE ah, play the game, (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE found out, you know, what they wanted to hear. And ah, to me, that’s really counterproductive. It, it, it, if, if anything, it’s, it’s, it’s a waste of time, and, and it might be, be more harmful than it is ah, helpful.
40:10WILLIAM MILLER Sounds like it was for you.
MIKE Yeah. Well, presenting what, you know, quite anything, if you’re not committed to it.
40:20WILLIAM MILLER And in my own sense, it’s that, it’s that internal reason that really makes the difference. (crosstalk)
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Alright. And when instead of that there being somebody out there… (crosstalk)
40:25MIKE Yeah, external. Yeah. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER …telling you,
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER was telling you that something inside of you.
MIKE Right. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Your longings or whatever it is.
40:30MIKE Yeah. I think it… (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Like “hey!” (crosstalk)
MIKE …hits through my body. (laughing)
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah, (laughing) alright.
MIKE My brain said, “Hey,
40:35WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE hey, I’m stupid but your liver doesn’t like you too much.” (crosstalk)
40:40WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Your lungs are little pissed, you know? (laughs)
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. So what gets in the way of your, of your sticking with that? Now, wha, what gets in your way of running?
40:45MIKE You know, I don’t know.
2-30
MIKE It, it, that’s what pisses me off. (crosstalk)
50:00WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE I mean, if I was stupid, I could forgive myself for it. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE If I defy myself as an, an “addict,” you know, then I think a lot of people too, then they could forgive themselves for it.
50:10WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE But that’s, no.
WILLIAM MILLER That’s not a way out for you.
50:15MIKE No. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER No.
MIKE That, that out doesn’t work. It’s that, (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE that’s a copout I mean that’s a copout. And ah, uhm, see, if, I wish I was stupid, and I could just say, didn’t know any better.
50:25WILLIAM MILLER And you could sit back here and… (crosstalk)
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER …feel comfortable. (crosstalk)
MIKE Fair enough. Yeah. Right. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Now, the place where you are is really uncomfortable.
50:30MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER And moving either way from, it is more comfortable.
50:35MIKE Ah, of course,
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE moving up or back.(crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE Yeah, moving up or back. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER You would stay in there(ph) because you’re conscious of it. You’re conscious of taking in the poison or the carcinogen, or whatever it is, it’s the same. (crosstalk)
50:40MIKE That’s the problem.
50:45WILLIAM MILLER But why?
MIKE That is, yeah, what are you… (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE …doing this for, (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE you know, what are you doing this for. And, ah.
50:50WILLIAM MILLER And that’s the tethering in which, which way am I gonna move on for this. (crosstalk)
50:55MIKE Right.
WILLIAM MILLER ‘Coz I don’t wanna stay here.
MIKE You know, yeah, you know the guys sort of-
2-31
MIKE – exactly like kill me, you know. “Oh, you’re smoking that again, oh yeah. You know, you’re stupid, man?” So, I got a little peer pressure goin’ there. (crosstalk)
51:05WILLIAM MILLER So, you’re not all, pulling you in the drink and smoking.
51:10MIKE Oh, no, no. They don’t, (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE they won’t, yeah, well, well, ah, you know, all the pants.
51:15WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE And that this is all about, you know, like a polo or soccer team.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE Most of these guys ride off the boat. Okay. And then they do drink a lot, some.
51:20WILLIAM MILLER They just give you hard time about smoking.
51:25MIKE Right, and they don’t smoke.
WILLIAM MILLER Okay.
MIKE And I say, “Well, listen, you know, hey, if you want me to quit, quit smoking, I’m gonna have to quit drinking. Oh no, you could, you could. No,” I just said, “no. I can’t.
51:35WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE It doesn’t work that way for me. And then he had never done that they don’t know. So, I’m gonna be here for like, if I do this, (crosstalk)
51:40WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE how about you to stay away from them. At least long enough to establish some type of, ah.
51:45WILLIAM MILLER There you got it.
MIKE Yeah. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER You know, pip, people who make it through change, usually there, I mean you, you got it. Either do what you’re saying, which is for a while. (crosstalk)
51:55MIKE Quite(ph) about whole way, yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER For a awhile. (crosstalk)
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Avoid the valley of shadow of death. You know, I mean-
52:002-32
WILLIAM MILLER – avoid the, the difficult place. (crosstalk)
MIKE Right, right.
WILLIAM MILLER And then it gets ah, it gets more okay. You got to not, brushed(ph) too quick back in there. But, but it gets to be okay. You don’t have to then stay way from… (crosstalk)
52:05MIKE Forever. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER after awhile. But not forever and ever. (crosstalk)
52:10MIKE Yeah, forever.
WILLIAM MILLER And so why you’re probably right.
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Or, somehow get them to say, help me out, guys, you know, I mean, you know, if they wont do it, then, then you’re right.
52:20MIKE No, it’s outlive these out like the bad guys, they just don’t know.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE See, they don’t, they’re not.
WILLIAM MILLER Have done?
52:25MIKE You know, you know, the, they don’t know.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE I mean, uhm, uhm, I, I, I think if, if, if, if you don’t smoke, you don’t smoke cigarettes, you don’t know, (crosstalk)
52:35WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE you’ll not gonna know. And, ah, how can it possibly help me.
52:40WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. Well, well, I, I only meant that if, if they could get it in their heads, that what you’re saying is right.
52:45MIKE Yeah, right.
WILLIAM MILLER That if they wanna help you stop smoking, they’ve got to also not encourage you to drink. (crosstalk)
52:50MIKE Don’t, don’t come over with the 12-pack, what, what something.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. (crosstalk)
MIKE You know, you know come on.
52:55WILLIAM MILLER So if, if you could ask them to do that, to help you out that much then, (inaudible )
52:59MIKE They’re guys. They’re guys. These are guys.-
53:002-33
MIKE – Okay. They’re guys. I’m single, you see. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE If I was married, I could blame it on my wife. In fact, I’m thinking of getting married. Well, I’m, I’m just kidding. But I’m, I’m thinking of a rent a wife situation. You see, you rent a wife, and you tell all your guy friends, “Hey, I’m a married man.” My wife will kill me if he does come over. And get, get them the hell out of your place. If you’re bachelor that try to get away of the wife, guess who they come over to hang around with?
53:25MIKE And guess what, that excuse doesn’t work. The only thing they understand is some, some bitchy lady with a skirt.
53:30WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Okay. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Then you work. (crosstalk)
MIKE And then, then you, you can clear ’em out of your place.
53:35WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE Otherwise, you can’t clear ’em out, man. So then, you have no excuse, but, ah, to do what they wanna do.
53:40WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE That, that’s, that’s the way guys are. At least, the guys I know aren’t that way.
53:45WILLIAM MILLER So, you’re right, so you got to stay from, for a while. (crosstalk)
MIKE Right. Right. I hope I’m not bad for it. You know, I see.
53:50WILLIAM MILLER No, no.
MIKE As if (inaudible ) of the place. (crosstalk)
53:52WILLIAM MILLER Well, I think, I mean, you’re giving me a real good sense of who you are, right?
53:55MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER I, I mean, I love to read the book to the end. And I’d love to know which way you’re gonna go from this place.
54:00MIKE I would like to do it myself, I don’t even know.
2-34
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE You know, I don’t even know. Uhm, like I say, I, I, I, uhm, I’m, I’m still at the ambivalent stage, and, ah, let’s get to the point where I may have to make one, you know.
54:10WILLIAM MILLER Is it too uncomfortable?
54:15MIKE Well, yeah, but I mean, nobody wanna go back.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE I mean where’s back. Where’s back gonna take you.
54:20WILLIAM MILLER Yeah, you know.
MIKE Yeah.
54:25WILLIAM MILLER Yeah but it’s that, “Can I do it,” obstacle?
MIKE Well, that’s, that’s, it’s a confidence problem.
WILLIAM MILLER It’s there something that would help you to be more confident.
54:30MIKE Yeah, well, yeah.
54:35WILLIAM MILLER To be able to look at it and say, I could do that. I can see myself doing that.
54:40MIKE Well, yeah. But what’s that gonna be?
WILLIAM MILLER I’m not sure.
MIKE That’s it’s gonna have to be a journal, it’s not gonna work for me.
54:45WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE It can’t be anything external, I, I can’t deal with cheerleaders, (crosstalk)
54:50WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE I can’t deal with ah, “Oh, you can do it, you can do it.” Hey come on. You know, I’m little to old for that, that crap. (crosstalk)
54:55WILLIAM MILLER Like somebody is pushing you.
MIKE Well, you know, I mean, I’m gonna have to figure out I can do it myself,-
55:002-35
MIKE – or just not gonna be able to get done.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
55:05MIKE And that’s just, the long and the short of that is what’s this is really. (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER That’s the bottom line.
MIKE Yeah, I mean, I think, for a person like me that is the bottom line. It, it has to be important enough. But I think it is important enough now.
55:15WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Or else, I wouldn’t even thinking about this in the first place.
55:20WILLIAM MILLER That’s how it sounds.
MIKE You know, this, ah, you know, as far as I’m concerned, I don’t care if I die tomorrow. This is not about my health.
55:25WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Boy, I can’t stand, if I’m not the fastest guy out there, I have an identity crisis, okay. It’s my arrogance, okay.
55:35WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE It’s my conceit, it’s my pride, okay. So I’m using all the negative stuff, you’re never supposed to have in AA to hear from me to help me. (crosstalk)
55:45WILLIAM MILLER Challenge, to that. That’s what it get you through, hah. (crosstalk)
MIKE That’s what it gets me.
55:50WILLIAM MILLER Sheer conceitedness. Yeah.
MIKE Yeah. That’s just, just to, ah, just your, you know, if anything arrogance really, anything inside pride, that’s all it is. And really it has nothing to do with health. It really doesn’t, yeah, I mean, I, I hate-
56:002-36
MIKE – to admit it, but as far as a large avenue in life, I don’t really care about it. It’s not high quality of life. You know, everyone dies. (crosstalk)
56:10WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Everyone makes such a big goddamned deal out of it. I mean, so goddamned tired of this, this people. Well I eat this healthy food, I do this, and I don’t go out in the sun and yeah, yeah, you’re 400 pounds overweight, you don’t work out, you know, don’t, don’t give me this, you live forever, but live what?
56:25WILLIAM MILLER We’re all gonna die anyhow.
MIKE We’re all gonna die anyhow, what are you gonna do? Just never go out in the sun?
56:30WILLIAM MILLER But why you’re here, you want to be the best.
MIKE Well, I mean, kinda be nice to wake up, you know, to feel healthy and, and, and be able to do what you like to do.
56:35WILLIAM MILLER It is.
MIKE Ah, the idea of well, yeah if you could do what you like to do forever. I, I would like to that. But I know that’s not gonna happen, and I accept that. And, and, and to me, it’s no so much the longevity issue as it is a quality of life issue. And, ah, so that’s, ah, that’s the deal.
56:55WILLIAM MILLER You know the funny thing is that it sounds to me like you have made up your mind.
MIKE Possibly.
WILLIAM MILLER Maybe.
57:00MIKE Yeah. I think I’m swaying.
57:052-37
WILLIAM MILLER Little (inaudible ). If we. (crosstalk)
57:06MIKE Swaying, swaying. I’m a pendulum, you know.
WILLIAM MILLER I don’t know though, it’s kinda nice back there.
57:10MIKE Yeah, back there is more comfortable, ever since known.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh-huh.
MIKE It’s known.
WILLIAM MILLER It’s predictable?
MIKE That’s all it is, it’s known.
57:15WILLIAM MILLER It is predictable.
MIKE That’s all it is, it’s known. Yeah, someone told me, ah, it make a lot of sense, banging your head against a brick wall. You start to miss that brick wall, and you could bang your head against it. You know, I mean, I think that’s what, but everything is. Not just smoking, not just drinking, not just doing whatever, cocaine, or anything else. But everything else. I mean bad relationships, all like that.
57:35WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
57:40MIKE You know, I think bad jobs are like that. It think we livin’ in bad areas, or town or like that, I think that would, you know its’ familiar. Because it’s familiar, it’s predictable.
57:45WILLIAM MILLER Right.
MIKE You’re comfortable with it. It’s not that terrible change, you know, that’s a scary thing. I don’t know, maybe that’s what it is. So.
57:55WILLIAM MILLER Okay. What if, what if you stop smoking, and drinking and still couldn’t keep up with the young guys.
58:00MIKE Oh, I don’t think that’s gonna be a problem, that’s all right. I know, (crosstalk)
58:05WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE I already can’t.
2-38
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE That’s a fact. Ah, it’s just that, ah, you know, I’m getting older, and this is not gonna last forever. I put a lot in a bank account and had, ah, ah, scholarship, now college scholarship when I, I went to college, which I didn’t take. We had a 432 miles as always been fast.
58:20WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE But I always had, ah, the way I’m looking at, is always had a bank account, and I put a lot in that bank account. And probably you would ask about the bank account. Well, I’ve been withdrawing off that bank account for a long time. Now, it’s just about. (crosstalk)
58:30WILLIAM MILLER Balance is getting low.
58:35MIKE Balance is getting low, so I just have to kind of start filling it up again. And, ah.
58:40WILLIAM MILLER That’s a nice admission. (crosstalk)
MIKE Well, I think that’s, that’s exactly what’s going on.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE You can only, you can only do this stuff so long, before you gonna start feeling the effects.
58:45WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE I’m starting to feel the effects. Well, maybe worst, but I just didn’t realize, now I’m not so sure.
58:55WILLIAM MILLER You don’t wanna go into debt?
MIKE No, I don’t wanna go to debt.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. Makes sense to me. Well, I love now how the story comes out.
59:00MIKE Well, we should do a follow up.
59:052-39
WILLIAM MILLER I want to know. Yeah. (crosstalk)
MIKE You know, I tell you, if I do this, it’s not going to be for two, two, two to three weeks. You know. Everyone says, I’ll do it tomorrow. You know what, no. No.
59:15WILLIAM MILLER You’re gonna set out date somewhere?
59:20MIKE Well, yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Not tomorrow. Uh hmm.
MIKE Not tomorrow.
59:25WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Not today, not right now. You know. I mean, it, I, you know, I’m not just not gonna do that. You know, it. It’s, it’s gotta be, uhm, here’s, here’s what happens, to me, when I start doing shit, it’s contradictory to bad habits.
59:40WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE Bad habits start disappearing almost naturally.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
59:45MIKE And I start getting a role.
WILLIAM MILLER Beautiful.
MIKE And then I start getting to the point where I wanna continue this good habit.
59:50WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE But then somehow some of these feeling they start to go away. So what I do, I kinda like steamroll this turkey.
59:55WILLIAM MILLER Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
MIKE And then as soon as I, as soon as I, I get that steamroll thing going, and, and you know, I got, I got this thing on the run, it’s like okay baby. Now we’re going. (crosstalk)
01:00:05WILLIAM MILLER Get you half time.
MIKE Now, you’re vulnerable.
2-40
MIKE Now, you’re gonna die. You know? (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER That’s, that’s the plan that works for you.
01:00:10MIKE Yeah. Yeah. Now.
WILLIAM MILLER Good.
MIKE Does that work for anyone also? Am I strange? (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Oh, uhm, people, people. No, no. Now people are, people are real different, in terms of the way they find.
01:00:20MIKE Yeah. Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER And it’s kinda your personality. And you know, what grabs you, what’s the thing… (crosstalk)
MIKE Being(ph) young.
WILLIAM MILLER …that finally tips the seesaw for you. (crosstalk)
01:00:25MIKE I was, I was told, it doesn’t work. I was, you know, as told, “Oh no, on, one size fits all. No, this is how we have to do it though. This is the only way we do it.” You know, that’s what I was always told.
01:00:35WILLIAM MILLER Yeah. Not one size fits all. (crosstalk)
MIKE It made not, it, it, it, no sense to me, and I just, I really lost respect for, for, for,
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE you know, anyone in the industry because of that.
01:00:40WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE Do you have any intuition, do you ever listen to your clients?
01:00:45WILLIAM MILLER Hmm.
MIKE Have you ever thought that there could be something called individuals out there? Hey, that was your curve guys, hey, you know what it is? Guess what, (crosstalk)
01:00:50WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm.
MIKE different IQ levels, different personality traits, guess what? (crosstalk)
01:00:55WILLIAM MILLER People know something about themselves.
MIKE Yeah.
WILLIAM MILLER Uh hmm. Yeah. (crosstalk)
01:01:00MIKE So, I, ah, I never got there from, ah, of course, like I say, it was, they were, it was, uhm, (crosstalk)
WILLIAM MILLER Hmm.
01:01:05MIKE a little bit different.
WILLIAM MILLER Yeah.
MIKE So.
WILLIAM MILLER Well, wish you well.
2-41
MIKE Okay.
WILLIAM MILLER I’d like to know how the story comes out.